Swindon UFO Research

An interview with Nick Redfern

When did you first become aware of the UFO phenomenon and how did it affect you?

I've never personally seen a UFO, so I've never actually had that life-changing style event that a lot of people in Ufology have experienced. So, in that sense, I've always been quite emotionally unattached to the controversy, and I wouldn't say the UFO subject has ever affected me from an emotional perspective at all. I got interested because my father was in the RAF. He worked on radar and was involved in a couple of radar-based incidents in the 50s, and this got me interested when he told me about it - when I was probably about 12, 13, something like that. So, I became very fascinated by the subject, and I still am: but only from the perspective of a detached outsider. But, as for it affecting me, no. It's an interest for me, but not a way of life or something I obsess over. I don't stare at the stars every night! Me and my wife do all the normal things: go down the English-theme-pubs here in Dallas on the weekend, watch the telly, go to the footy (yes, there is a league over here!), etc. UFOs are an interest, but that's it. And I actually wouldn't want it to be anymore than that. All that 'the aliens are here to save us; praise the aliens' stuff makes me want to puke. When people get that attached to, and affected by, the UFO subject it becomes as bad as - and an equivalent of - the world's biggest scourge: religion.

How did you make the transition from a UFO buff to an acknowledged expert on the subject?

I actually don't consider myself - or anyone else in the subject either - to be a literal expert. After all, how is it possible to be an expert on a subject, when we don't actually even know what lies at the heart of the subject? Rather, I would consider myself (and everyone else in the subject) as someone who collects a lot of data, researches it, analyses it, and then puts it out there for others to see. I'm not sure at all that any of this makes a person an expert by definition - purely because we have never found any firm answers about the truly unexplained aspects of Ufology. I'm sure there are a lot of pompous ufological types who do consider themselves experts, however! But, they're definitely not: they just have lots of filing cabinets filled with lots of data and absolutely no firm answers - just like me and everyone else in the subject!

The publishing industry seems moribund regarding the subject these days. How hard has it been for you to get your later books published?

I wouldn't say it has been difficult at all to get my latest books published. I think what has happened in the period since my first book ('A Covert Agenda') was published in 1997, is that the publishing market - in terms of specific, larger publishing companies - has dropped massively. So, whereas my first 7 books ('A Covert Agenda;' 'The FBI Files;' 'Cosmic Crashes;' 'Strange Secrets;' 'Three Men Seeking Monsters;' 'Body Snatchers in the Desert;' and 'Celebrity Secrets') were all published by Simon & Schuster, today, a lot of the bigger publishers aren't that interested anymore in putting out UFO books. But, there are still plenty of good, smaller publishers - like Patrick Huyghe's Anomalist Books, who do an absolutely excellent job, and who published my 'On the Trail of the Saucer Spies;' 'There's Something in the Woods;' and who will be publishing my next book, 'Sci-Fi Secrets.' Anomalist Books are a great, dedicated and enthusiastic team, and I'm happy to have them publish my books as long as they want to. So, really, it's just trends, the specific publishing companies, and the size of the market that have changed, rather than the actual, literal ability to get published.

Being Birmingham born and bred, what made you decide to move to the United States?

Well, I've always enjoyed traveling, and when I was 17 or 18, me and 3 of my mates went down to Brixham for 3 years and lived in a caravan down there - which was pretty much an Animal House type time LOL - , and that's where I got a lot of experience in writing for magazines, which set me off on the road to journalism and books. In fact, if I didn't live here, I'd go back to Devon: I love it down there. And, in the 90s, I spent quite a bit of time in the US, Mexico, Switzerland and France too, and enjoyed the life of traveling around, living out of run-down motels and B&Bs for (literally!) months, and just maintaining a mailing address in the UK. It was kind of funny that a lot of people assumed I always lived in the Midlands, not realizing that I had a postal address I'd check in with once every few months - but that I was on the road for most of my mid-twenties to early thirties. Then, 9 years ago, I met my wife Dana, who grew up in the Cayman Islands, and we spent a lot of time (about a year or so) going back and forth from England to the US (although Cayman, she was living just outside Houston, Texas at the time), then getting married and staying in the US. Luckily, she likes the same lifestyle as me, and I think we have lived in 10 flats or rooms in the 9 years we have been together - which included returning to England to live for a year in 2006. When I moved to the US, I took 2 suitcases of clothes, my collection of punk-rock CDs, and my last couple of hundred quid in the world - literally. Lots of people in ufology were gob-smacked when they found out I took my entire UFO collection (aside from a few old MoD files that Dave Clarke and Andy Roberts had off me) to the council-tip because there was no way I could afford to take all that to the US! But I told everyone - well in advance of my move - that all my files, books, magazines etc were available, but no-one could be bothered to drive and pick it up from me - for free, even, which I thought was amazing! When I left England, my wife didn't have a job, she was broke. I didn't have a job, I was flat broke - and it was just a case of me blagging for work in the US when I got off the plane, and us literally trying to keep a roof over our heads and survive in what was a new environment for both of us. But we did it, we pulled ourselves up, and I was able to get back on my feet, and continue the writing. And, again, I enjoy just hitting the road with a rucksack, etc. I've never really worried about the future. I go a week at a time, and as for what happens next week..well, I'll find out next week. I don't give a monkeys, really.

Many of your earlier books were very pro towards the subject, and some critics seem to feel that your stance has changed? Is this the case and if so, how did this come about?

Well, my views on certain cases have definitely changed - such as on Roswell. But I am still a very firm believer in the existence of a genuine UFO mystery, but I kind of left the ETH behind around 2000. I veer today much more towards a Keel-ian/Vallee approach: the whole trickster, and messengers of deception approach. So, yes, my stance has changed. But not to a sceptic - just to the idea that the ETH probably isn't correct. People sometimes find it odd that I can believe in UFOs but that I can also dismiss Roswell. I don't get that. Why is it necessary to embrace Roswell into the picture all the time?

Now, with a number of books behind you, what are your thoughts on the UFO phenomenon?

Today, I think the UFO subject can probably be explained via several phenomena: classified military vehicles, poorly understood natural phenomena, and a genuine UFO mystery that has intelligence behind it, but that probably isn't extraterrestrial. It might very well be Tulpa/thought-form based. I quite like Mac Tonnies' 'cryptoterrestrial' theory too.

Crypto zoology now seems to be one of your main interests. You are now the director of the US office of the British centre of Fortean Zoology. What does that entail?

Actually, a lot of people are surprised when they find that my interest in crypto goes back much longer than my interest in UFOs, and that I've actually written more crypto books than UFO books! I went to Loch Ness as a kid, and that got me fascinated, and I started doing crypto investigations around (I think) 87/88, something like that. Then in the 90s I met Jon Downes - who is without doubt my closest friend in Forteana - who runs the Centre for Fortean Zoology in Devon. Me and Jon (and Richard Freeman, the zoological director of the CFZ) did a lot of work together from around 1996 to 2001 - and I practically (really!) lived, worked and slept on Jon's settee for a good percentage of the entire period from 1998 to 2000. When I moved to the US in 2001, I set up a US office of Jon's group, and we do a lot of expeditions: me and Jon went to Puerto Rico in 2004 to search for the Chupacabras. I've done a lot of expeditions over here into Bigfoot, lake-monsters, etc. And, so that's the bulk of the work: getting out into the field, doing research, and trying to figure out what the hell these creatures are!

Have you found the attitude on the other side of the Atlantic different with regards UFOs and fortean subjects?

That's a very good question. I would definitely say as far as UFOs are concerned, the whole ETH is very dominating in the US. And, as for cryptozoology, it's very much 'flesh-and-blood' driven. Alternative, esoteric theories aren't that popular among the mainstream fortean communities over here. I don't care though. If people aren't open to alternatives, to hell with them. There's nothing worse than a mind-made-up - even if it's a believer's mind.

Your 2006 book, On the trail of the saucer spies is about government surveillance of UFO researchers and contactees. Why do you think that the various governments take such a clandestine interest in such people, considering that they always seem to deny any fascination in the subject?

Well, as my book demonstrates, the reasons why people within Ufology were being watched (for the most part, at least) actually had nothing to do with UFOs. Rather, it was the political issues that some of the people embraced that led to the secret surveillance. Such as the FBI watching George Adamski because he said his alien friends were communists. So, the FBI was concerned that Adamski was spreading communism, but under the guise of talking about Saucers. And it is that broad theme that runs through most of the spying on the UFO community: it's the politics (and sometimes extreme politics) of the players that concern the official world, not their alleged alien contacts or involvement in Ufology per se. But, that still makes it a fascinating story - it's just not the story that a lot of people expect to hear - or even want to hear.

The whole UFO topic continues to evolve, from motherships to Triangles, from perfect human looking aliens to the now archetypal Grey. Where do you think we will be in say another 50 years research into the subject?

I'm absolutely certain that the next 50 years will be the same as the previous 50 years. A lot of research will be done, a lot of theories will be discussed, a lot of books will be written, and a lot of people will shout very loudly at other people who disagree with them! I am also certain that 50 years from now, we still won't know what UFOs are, and people will still be debating about bloody Roswell! The Triangles, the Greys, etc will probably be long gone, and replaced by...well...I'm not sure what. But I'm certain the alien 'motif' will be very different. Then again, I have no faith at all that the Human Race will survive much longer - I think we have passed the peak, and it's pretty much down hill from here for the next couple of centuries. So, it may not matter; as 50 years from now there might not be many people left to care about the occasional weird thing seen in the sky! And if - as I believe - the UFO puzzle could well be Tulpa-based, if there's no-one left to believe in UFOs or the Tulpas themselves, then they may slowly fade away and out of existence too.